You just saved me from a HUGE mistake. I was going to include SOTB in my weekly Connecting Readers/Writers post, since he said I would be "gatekeeping" if I didn't (hey, it's MY 'Stack, so I can include or not what I want). That steamed me enough, but seeing the Note and his language in replying to Scoot really sealed the deal. I have now blocked him. As for writers getting paid, that is their decision. Some don't mind putting free stuff out there. Others want to be paid. Either way, we gotta keep it classy.
To point out the positive side of all this (I was the one who made the whole 2% drawing before getting blocked), the amount of communal support that rose to the occasion around this has been incredible.
After I was blocked for my comment, (which in hindsight I definitely should have written with a softer tone—I admit I let my annoyance at the gall of it all get the better of me), I had multiple people reach out with a DM to offer support.
This is a good community, folks. You all make it what it is, and I’m glad to be a part of it.
Thanks for making the graphic. I didn’t see it, as the reply from the guy to your comment didn’t show the original comment (probably since he blocked you), but I got the gist of it.
The basic principle of publishing. Money flows from the publisher to the author, not the other way around.
It would make sense for someone to ask for story submissions, to pay the authors, and then to grow a substack and make money that way. Like an old fashioned magazine. I hope some people who are good at growing substacks start doing that. I would gladly send them stuff.
But I hope authors don't start paying to be published on other people's substacks. That's more like vanity or predatory publishing. It would be a disaster if that became prominent in this space.
Well, if it works there, they will try it here for sure, but in the comments someone pointed out that if you subscribe through a browser, this doesn't happen. I know this website is going to get more aggressive as it evolves.
Yeah, I think it was M.E. Rothwell who posited this. For sure Substack will be able to get a workaround going to not force creators to pay an additional 30%. And I believe the right thing to do will be to make it optional.
I hear you, Andrei. I recently wrote a very similar note, about asking for or trading recommendations, which I also find to be a turn-off.
Your point is perfectly sound: that you never pay for a newsletter simply because you are asked to, but rather only when the newsletter offers you a fair value for your money.
I couldn’t help but think about visual artists, painters, as I was reading your post. Artists, unlike writers, rarely give their work away for free, no matter how amateur it is. They display it at the local arts and crafts show, affix a price tag, and then hope and pray that they sell something. If the work isn’t that good, it probably won’t sell. But no one seems to feel the artist is being sleazy for putting their work up for sale.
The same artists often have their own webpage, or post pics of their work on Instagram, most often for one purpose; in the hopes of a sale.
This is just food for thought. Why do you think there is a different expectation of writers versus painters? I wouldn’t buy a painting if I didn’t really like it, but I wouldn’t resent the artist for asking for money for it.
Again, I agree with you about sales pitches that don’t work! Just presenting this dynamic for consideration. 🙂
Hey, Don! Hmm, yeah, that’s an interesting mirror image. To my mind the fault lies in how you ask, and in providing access to the work.
If all an artist does is showcase the work in hopes of a sale, they basically rely on the strength of the work itself. The work, in that way, sells itself or not through its own strength alone.
If a painter were to ask me for a membership fee to even have access to their work, that’d be a total turnoff. If they, however, presented me with 5-6 of their best pieces and gave me the opportunity to pay to view 25 more of similar quality, I very well might take them up on the offer.
Good point, Andrei. And now that I think of it, when an artist’s work is on display at a gallery or a show, you are allowed to look at it for free. That might compare to our free offerings here
That’s how I see it too. Which is why it angers and saddens me that writers with a very small following and not that much experience paywall all their stuff. How am I supposed to know whether it’s worth it for me to pay if I can’t judge the work beforehand?
So true! The other day I read a long, free essay that I really enjoyed. As I was reading, I was preparing my response. Then I clicked “reply.” Only paid subscribers are allowed to reply. There is nothing that makes me feel more disrespected! Now that’s sleazy! You want me to read your work but you don’t want to hear from me. It feels so manipulative. Like I am only a mark, not a person.
In my earlier years, I was an artist (graphite, watercolor, some oil) and was often asked to donate a picture to some "worthy cause" or others. And my relatives stole paintings I lent them and that they signed an agreement to return. It would have cost too much to sue them. All creatives are often asked to give away their work. Whether they do or not is their choice. But I advocate for value exchanges -- our creativity vs. their something of value (not necessarily money). Btw, on Twitter/X, I am constantly bugged by people who say they'll post positive reviews of my books for a fee. Paying for reviews is outside the scope of my ethics. Asking for recommendation exchanges seems to be the same thing.
That is a very interesting point. And basically what I think most of us do here: we give people the opportunity to check out our work for free, and if they want 'extra', they can support us. Nothing wrong with that!
Well, somehow, I missed all of this drama. It's pretty clear who everyone is talking about here. I'm like Andrei, I had a story published in the first month's issue, but I never really kept up with where SOTB went from there. I didn't drink the Kool-Aid I guess. I will bow out of this and making any comment other than, from what I've read in the links to catch up on this, it certainly appears as if I need to thin my subscriptions by one. I'll 'confess', I paywall stories after 2 free days but I also offer a huge discount. I don't think I'm the greatest thing since sliced bread and don't pretend to be. I try very hard to be courteous, civil, not beg and I like to think that I'm overly supportive of every writer I know, and don't know, on here. I hope that grants me a reprieve on the issue of paywalls. - Jim
So I’m in total agreement, but one question: did SOTB ask for money from submissions/authors? (EDIT: Yes, it did.) I don’t remember that being part of his pitch. (EDIT: It was absolutely part of the pitch.)
I still viewed it as significantly problematic, mind you, and when the organizer asked for feedback, I said so. Before my comments were deleted. For me though the issue was that he was pocketing over 60% of the cash and delivering 1.8% to each featured author, and then when that was pointed out he just called people names. What he said to Scoot was more tame compared to some of his other invective.
Then the fact that what he was selling was a list of otherwise free fiction. It didn’t have a value add, it didn’t have a way to sustainably grow to more readers, it didn’t have a way to maintain paid subscribers once these mythical customers (who would be happy to pay for a list of links to free fiction) discovered the authors they wanted to subscribed to the authors’ free stacks…
But I didn’t view it as “predatory” in that SOTB wanted to squeeze out the participants. I viewed it as “predatory” because SOTB could—if it finds a paying readership, which I don’t think it can—make money from that readership on the backs of other authors’ work while giving those authors a pittance, all while claiming to be the vanguard of author renumeration and a boon to the community….
Unless I’m missing the fact that submitters had to be paying subscribers to be included, in which case it was 100% a scam. (EDIT: I did miss that fact). I just don’t think that was the vision. (EDIT: I was wrong, that was the vision).
I’m willing to believe that this was less about scamming and more about one guy having a very misguided (ie delusional) idea about how to hack to system, who then got ludicrously defensive and vicious when others pointed out the flaws. Self-immolation born of pride. (EDIT: I am no longer willing to believe that. It is a total scam).
Checked the post again and found where it says authors have to pay. Will DM a picture to you. Otherwise, agree with all you’ve said. I had a problem with the predatory nature of the paid model from the first as well, but I just thought I’d disregard it.
Full disclosure, I had a story published in the first edition of SOTB as well, and as I said, I was on good terms with him for a few months. Which is why I was quite shocked to read how he mistreated Sally Reid and Scoot.
And yes, it just seemed to me that all the guy was aggressively trying to make money when having close to no content and no clear offering.
Okay, WOW. I completely missed that detail, thanks for sharing the screenshot. I stand by what I said above then that this was 100% a scam and the last vestige of benefit of the doubt has dried up like the morning dew. I’m no longer willing to believe this was just misguided. Totally predatory.
I'm gonna weigh in on this. Yeah, it's not like we don't know who everyone's talking about here. Maybe he'll grow up when he realizes what a dick move he made, and yada, yada, yada. I haven't blocked him yet, because I haven't been getting a lot of stuff from him. I turned my email off when we went on our Vacation, and haven't really bothered to turn it back on. I was getting too much to keep up with.
As for asking for payment...I have a Paywall. I won't deny it. I don't care if people buy into it or not. I try to support who I can, but (he-he, never thought I'd say this) being a pensioner, it's not as easy as it once was. But that's NOT why I have a paywall. That was just three friends who wanted to support me as a writer when I started out here two years ago. I thought, well, I have to give them something. The reality and the dream are worlds apart though, aren't they? My first thought, and it's still there in the back of my mind somewhere, was that if I got enough people paying into my little project here, I could print up copies of my stories and send it to them. I'd actually be giving them something for the money they were giving me. But...people weren't interested, or maybe they didn't think my stories were worth it. Who knows?
I don't "beg" for money. I mean, I dropped the price down to 80% off, and people STILL weren't buying into it. It's not that people are cheap. I know they're not, they just don't think they should "have to" pay for writing. So the only thing I have behind my PAYWALL are my serials. I used to put those up with long excerpts hoping that might entice people inside. Nope. So now, when I put my "Locksley" serial behind the PAYWALL again, I'm not going to put up excerpts. I've been putting up the first 14 chapters for FREE, hoping that would draw readers in...nope. Got a total of seven.
The one that matters the most -- no matter how much I love writing my Locksley story right now -- are my STORIES, AFTER EIGHT. That's my FREE stuff. That's where I put up the novellas I write, and READ them out loud, because I enjoy that, too. (To be honest, I never thought I would.) But I've been reading my stories out loud before Substack introduced their "video" posts. I just do cold readings. I don't edit or try to make them look professional. I just sit down in front of the screen, and read.
I think the whole secret to all of this pay or no pay, is not to expect anything. I've got 25 PAID subscribers. $47 a month. Do you know what I'm going to buy with that? I'm taking my family out for dinner at the end of the year. THAT's the best payment I could hope to ask for.
I think that’s commendable. You’ve found a way to introduce paid subscriptions in a way that feels genuine to your sensibilities. Thanks for sharing with me, Ben. I appreciate you being open and honest about how it’s been for you. And yeah, stories are the main thing, not the compensation and how they’ll be received. It can be hard to separate the two, however, it looks like.
Thanks for saying all this, Ben. One thing I'd like to say is that I never saw anyone upset in this whole situation simply because of a paywall. The creator of SOTB keep trying to paint himself and his project as a crusade for authors to get paid, and anyone who criticizes the model as being "against getting paid." He keeps saying that people who don't agree with his model (his scam) don't value art and want to exploit artists and demand writers do everything for free. He's said that about me specifically, and nothing could be further from the truth. I'm still offering everything for free, but I'm trying to grow an audience from nothing, and this isn't a hobby for me—I have ambitions.
Basically, I don't see people against the principle of a paywall. There are arguments over pragmatism, but not principle. So don't feel bad about valuing your work by paywalling stuff. And don't let anyone else make you feel bad. That isn't worthwhile criticism.
But I DO see one individual CLAIMING that people are against the principle of making a profit off of fiction. He is, in my opinion, attempting to create a false conflict between "free fiction" and "paid fiction," as a way to blow smoke and distract from the specifics his particular project. That project will fleece money out of writers who are desperate to get seen & paid. He's using the bait of a "scalable revenue share system" and the battle-cry of "our art has value" to draw people in. And once they're in, they contribute $96/year to the pot, "to show you value fiction," $60 of which goes to him...
It's similar psychology to MLM schemes, even if the structure is different: talk big about empowerment, promise people freedom and ease and "scalable income." Come down hard on the doubters, be over-nice to your marks, build trust by painting yourself as the victim of "the system." Then ask your marks to pony up on the way in. The truth is, he'll make money even if no one else breaks even...
"I'm not exploiting you, I'm the only one NOT exploiting you! I'm the only one you can trust! I can make you rich. I can make us ALL rich. I just need $500 from you to get started... and as long as you keep paying, it will all pay off. All your dreams will come true." ... Tale as old as time.
I'm with you on that! I'm just glad I don't get those guys in my feed. Not that I would pay any attention, let alone money. I've learned everything in life the hard way, so trying to get me into something like that, well, good luck!
A paid subscriber is a most cherished gift, not an entitlement. It is someone giving up some of their hard-earned income because they believe in your art, your commitment, your hard work, and - most of all - your integrity. Don’t betray their trust in you by forcing your demands upon them.
I didn’t want to be that harsh, but maybe that’s true. As I say, I’ve been following the guy and been on friendly terms with him for months without reading too much into what he was doing. I find it hard to suddenly turn into his enemy and start spewing invectives.
There's a part of me that wishes I'd been on Notes to see all this unfold live. I've played Late To The Party with this one earlier this week. Anyway, completely agree with all the thoughts here.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts! This post made me reconsider why I keep specific posts only for paid subscribers. I concluded that it's because I'm not ready for everyone and anyone to read such personal anecdotes. But maybe it's time to let go of that fear.
Sort of a corollary, if I may: Don’t ask *other writers* for money. But readers? Price your books competitively. (And FWIW, if a fan tells me they can’t afford $5.99 or whatever, I’ll happily gift them a copy.)
I totally agree with you. I understand the desire to make money from writing and live the dream of making enough to support one's lifestyle. But asking or demanding to get paid for your work has terrible taste.
I can only advise such a person to publish his or her work on platforms like Medium. If the work is good enough, it will bring some income.
I think that’s sound advice. Thanks for weighing in! In any case, thankfully the debate has died down, and stuff like this doesn’t happen very often here. Not many writers “market” themselves aggressively here.
I've been even more asleep to the situation. I do understand asking gets you places, but like you said, be humble and decent about it. The writing needs to speak for itself too.
You just saved me from a HUGE mistake. I was going to include SOTB in my weekly Connecting Readers/Writers post, since he said I would be "gatekeeping" if I didn't (hey, it's MY 'Stack, so I can include or not what I want). That steamed me enough, but seeing the Note and his language in replying to Scoot really sealed the deal. I have now blocked him. As for writers getting paid, that is their decision. Some don't mind putting free stuff out there. Others want to be paid. Either way, we gotta keep it classy.
The Scoot thing really irked me too. He’s so nice!
Yeah, it was like attacking Winnie the Pooh or my teddy bear. Sigh.
I want to print this out and frame it 😭🙏
Fine with me!
To point out the positive side of all this (I was the one who made the whole 2% drawing before getting blocked), the amount of communal support that rose to the occasion around this has been incredible.
After I was blocked for my comment, (which in hindsight I definitely should have written with a softer tone—I admit I let my annoyance at the gall of it all get the better of me), I had multiple people reach out with a DM to offer support.
This is a good community, folks. You all make it what it is, and I’m glad to be a part of it.
Thanks for making the graphic. I didn’t see it, as the reply from the guy to your comment didn’t show the original comment (probably since he blocked you), but I got the gist of it.
The basic principle of publishing. Money flows from the publisher to the author, not the other way around.
It would make sense for someone to ask for story submissions, to pay the authors, and then to grow a substack and make money that way. Like an old fashioned magazine. I hope some people who are good at growing substacks start doing that. I would gladly send them stuff.
But I hope authors don't start paying to be published on other people's substacks. That's more like vanity or predatory publishing. It would be a disaster if that became prominent in this space.
Yes, it would be a nightmare and likely spell the end of the platform. Thanks for weighing in! You put it quite well.
"It would make sense for someone to ask for story submissions..."
That's what a stack called Stardust Press is doing.
Please everyone, have a look at this https://open.substack.com/pub/on/p/apple-patreon-in-app-purchase-system?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android&r=1tfs3w
If I were a "creator", I would rain down thunderbolts on these people, but alas, I'm just a gypsy-dildo-punk artist without an MBA.
Wondering where that is going…
Well, if it works there, they will try it here for sure, but in the comments someone pointed out that if you subscribe through a browser, this doesn't happen. I know this website is going to get more aggressive as it evolves.
Yeah, I think it was M.E. Rothwell who posited this. For sure Substack will be able to get a workaround going to not force creators to pay an additional 30%. And I believe the right thing to do will be to make it optional.
I hear you, Andrei. I recently wrote a very similar note, about asking for or trading recommendations, which I also find to be a turn-off.
Your point is perfectly sound: that you never pay for a newsletter simply because you are asked to, but rather only when the newsletter offers you a fair value for your money.
I couldn’t help but think about visual artists, painters, as I was reading your post. Artists, unlike writers, rarely give their work away for free, no matter how amateur it is. They display it at the local arts and crafts show, affix a price tag, and then hope and pray that they sell something. If the work isn’t that good, it probably won’t sell. But no one seems to feel the artist is being sleazy for putting their work up for sale.
The same artists often have their own webpage, or post pics of their work on Instagram, most often for one purpose; in the hopes of a sale.
This is just food for thought. Why do you think there is a different expectation of writers versus painters? I wouldn’t buy a painting if I didn’t really like it, but I wouldn’t resent the artist for asking for money for it.
Again, I agree with you about sales pitches that don’t work! Just presenting this dynamic for consideration. 🙂
Hey, Don! Hmm, yeah, that’s an interesting mirror image. To my mind the fault lies in how you ask, and in providing access to the work.
If all an artist does is showcase the work in hopes of a sale, they basically rely on the strength of the work itself. The work, in that way, sells itself or not through its own strength alone.
If a painter were to ask me for a membership fee to even have access to their work, that’d be a total turnoff. If they, however, presented me with 5-6 of their best pieces and gave me the opportunity to pay to view 25 more of similar quality, I very well might take them up on the offer.
Good point, Andrei. And now that I think of it, when an artist’s work is on display at a gallery or a show, you are allowed to look at it for free. That might compare to our free offerings here
That’s how I see it too. Which is why it angers and saddens me that writers with a very small following and not that much experience paywall all their stuff. How am I supposed to know whether it’s worth it for me to pay if I can’t judge the work beforehand?
So true! The other day I read a long, free essay that I really enjoyed. As I was reading, I was preparing my response. Then I clicked “reply.” Only paid subscribers are allowed to reply. There is nothing that makes me feel more disrespected! Now that’s sleazy! You want me to read your work but you don’t want to hear from me. It feels so manipulative. Like I am only a mark, not a person.
Haha, damn, yes! I hate that as well. Another cheap tactic.
In my earlier years, I was an artist (graphite, watercolor, some oil) and was often asked to donate a picture to some "worthy cause" or others. And my relatives stole paintings I lent them and that they signed an agreement to return. It would have cost too much to sue them. All creatives are often asked to give away their work. Whether they do or not is their choice. But I advocate for value exchanges -- our creativity vs. their something of value (not necessarily money). Btw, on Twitter/X, I am constantly bugged by people who say they'll post positive reviews of my books for a fee. Paying for reviews is outside the scope of my ethics. Asking for recommendation exchanges seems to be the same thing.
Ew… I got a few DMs like those as well. Thankfully I don’t yet have any books to send for review😀
That is a very interesting point. And basically what I think most of us do here: we give people the opportunity to check out our work for free, and if they want 'extra', they can support us. Nothing wrong with that!
Good response. FYI: many amateur visual artists charge $ simply as reimbursement for physical material cost, i.e the canvas and paint.
It’s an expensive art form!
Well, somehow, I missed all of this drama. It's pretty clear who everyone is talking about here. I'm like Andrei, I had a story published in the first month's issue, but I never really kept up with where SOTB went from there. I didn't drink the Kool-Aid I guess. I will bow out of this and making any comment other than, from what I've read in the links to catch up on this, it certainly appears as if I need to thin my subscriptions by one. I'll 'confess', I paywall stories after 2 free days but I also offer a huge discount. I don't think I'm the greatest thing since sliced bread and don't pretend to be. I try very hard to be courteous, civil, not beg and I like to think that I'm overly supportive of every writer I know, and don't know, on here. I hope that grants me a reprieve on the issue of paywalls. - Jim
I appreciate you, Jim. You make some really valid points. Thanks for joining the discussion.
So I’m in total agreement, but one question: did SOTB ask for money from submissions/authors? (EDIT: Yes, it did.) I don’t remember that being part of his pitch. (EDIT: It was absolutely part of the pitch.)
I still viewed it as significantly problematic, mind you, and when the organizer asked for feedback, I said so. Before my comments were deleted. For me though the issue was that he was pocketing over 60% of the cash and delivering 1.8% to each featured author, and then when that was pointed out he just called people names. What he said to Scoot was more tame compared to some of his other invective.
Then the fact that what he was selling was a list of otherwise free fiction. It didn’t have a value add, it didn’t have a way to sustainably grow to more readers, it didn’t have a way to maintain paid subscribers once these mythical customers (who would be happy to pay for a list of links to free fiction) discovered the authors they wanted to subscribed to the authors’ free stacks…
But I didn’t view it as “predatory” in that SOTB wanted to squeeze out the participants. I viewed it as “predatory” because SOTB could—if it finds a paying readership, which I don’t think it can—make money from that readership on the backs of other authors’ work while giving those authors a pittance, all while claiming to be the vanguard of author renumeration and a boon to the community….
Unless I’m missing the fact that submitters had to be paying subscribers to be included, in which case it was 100% a scam. (EDIT: I did miss that fact). I just don’t think that was the vision. (EDIT: I was wrong, that was the vision).
I’m willing to believe that this was less about scamming and more about one guy having a very misguided (ie delusional) idea about how to hack to system, who then got ludicrously defensive and vicious when others pointed out the flaws. Self-immolation born of pride. (EDIT: I am no longer willing to believe that. It is a total scam).
Checked the post again and found where it says authors have to pay. Will DM a picture to you. Otherwise, agree with all you’ve said. I had a problem with the predatory nature of the paid model from the first as well, but I just thought I’d disregard it.
Full disclosure, I had a story published in the first edition of SOTB as well, and as I said, I was on good terms with him for a few months. Which is why I was quite shocked to read how he mistreated Sally Reid and Scoot.
And yes, it just seemed to me that all the guy was aggressively trying to make money when having close to no content and no clear offering.
Okay, WOW. I completely missed that detail, thanks for sharing the screenshot. I stand by what I said above then that this was 100% a scam and the last vestige of benefit of the doubt has dried up like the morning dew. I’m no longer willing to believe this was just misguided. Totally predatory.
I'm gonna weigh in on this. Yeah, it's not like we don't know who everyone's talking about here. Maybe he'll grow up when he realizes what a dick move he made, and yada, yada, yada. I haven't blocked him yet, because I haven't been getting a lot of stuff from him. I turned my email off when we went on our Vacation, and haven't really bothered to turn it back on. I was getting too much to keep up with.
As for asking for payment...I have a Paywall. I won't deny it. I don't care if people buy into it or not. I try to support who I can, but (he-he, never thought I'd say this) being a pensioner, it's not as easy as it once was. But that's NOT why I have a paywall. That was just three friends who wanted to support me as a writer when I started out here two years ago. I thought, well, I have to give them something. The reality and the dream are worlds apart though, aren't they? My first thought, and it's still there in the back of my mind somewhere, was that if I got enough people paying into my little project here, I could print up copies of my stories and send it to them. I'd actually be giving them something for the money they were giving me. But...people weren't interested, or maybe they didn't think my stories were worth it. Who knows?
I don't "beg" for money. I mean, I dropped the price down to 80% off, and people STILL weren't buying into it. It's not that people are cheap. I know they're not, they just don't think they should "have to" pay for writing. So the only thing I have behind my PAYWALL are my serials. I used to put those up with long excerpts hoping that might entice people inside. Nope. So now, when I put my "Locksley" serial behind the PAYWALL again, I'm not going to put up excerpts. I've been putting up the first 14 chapters for FREE, hoping that would draw readers in...nope. Got a total of seven.
The one that matters the most -- no matter how much I love writing my Locksley story right now -- are my STORIES, AFTER EIGHT. That's my FREE stuff. That's where I put up the novellas I write, and READ them out loud, because I enjoy that, too. (To be honest, I never thought I would.) But I've been reading my stories out loud before Substack introduced their "video" posts. I just do cold readings. I don't edit or try to make them look professional. I just sit down in front of the screen, and read.
I think the whole secret to all of this pay or no pay, is not to expect anything. I've got 25 PAID subscribers. $47 a month. Do you know what I'm going to buy with that? I'm taking my family out for dinner at the end of the year. THAT's the best payment I could hope to ask for.
I think that’s commendable. You’ve found a way to introduce paid subscriptions in a way that feels genuine to your sensibilities. Thanks for sharing with me, Ben. I appreciate you being open and honest about how it’s been for you. And yeah, stories are the main thing, not the compensation and how they’ll be received. It can be hard to separate the two, however, it looks like.
Thanks for saying all this, Ben. One thing I'd like to say is that I never saw anyone upset in this whole situation simply because of a paywall. The creator of SOTB keep trying to paint himself and his project as a crusade for authors to get paid, and anyone who criticizes the model as being "against getting paid." He keeps saying that people who don't agree with his model (his scam) don't value art and want to exploit artists and demand writers do everything for free. He's said that about me specifically, and nothing could be further from the truth. I'm still offering everything for free, but I'm trying to grow an audience from nothing, and this isn't a hobby for me—I have ambitions.
Basically, I don't see people against the principle of a paywall. There are arguments over pragmatism, but not principle. So don't feel bad about valuing your work by paywalling stuff. And don't let anyone else make you feel bad. That isn't worthwhile criticism.
But I DO see one individual CLAIMING that people are against the principle of making a profit off of fiction. He is, in my opinion, attempting to create a false conflict between "free fiction" and "paid fiction," as a way to blow smoke and distract from the specifics his particular project. That project will fleece money out of writers who are desperate to get seen & paid. He's using the bait of a "scalable revenue share system" and the battle-cry of "our art has value" to draw people in. And once they're in, they contribute $96/year to the pot, "to show you value fiction," $60 of which goes to him...
It's similar psychology to MLM schemes, even if the structure is different: talk big about empowerment, promise people freedom and ease and "scalable income." Come down hard on the doubters, be over-nice to your marks, build trust by painting yourself as the victim of "the system." Then ask your marks to pony up on the way in. The truth is, he'll make money even if no one else breaks even...
"I'm not exploiting you, I'm the only one NOT exploiting you! I'm the only one you can trust! I can make you rich. I can make us ALL rich. I just need $500 from you to get started... and as long as you keep paying, it will all pay off. All your dreams will come true." ... Tale as old as time.
So fucking well put. I have nothing to add.
I'm with you on that! I'm just glad I don't get those guys in my feed. Not that I would pay any attention, let alone money. I've learned everything in life the hard way, so trying to get me into something like that, well, good luck!
Sounds like a scam to me!
A paid subscriber is a most cherished gift, not an entitlement. It is someone giving up some of their hard-earned income because they believe in your art, your commitment, your hard work, and - most of all - your integrity. Don’t betray their trust in you by forcing your demands upon them.
It seems like not all of us see it that way…
It’s okay… Success will come to the pure of heart 🤗
If such a thing even exists…
Pencils are in the blind man’s cup. A beggar has at least something to offer for a handful of change.
To quote a famous Romanian movie called Filantropica: “The outstretched hand that does not tell a story won’t receive alms.”
Silently speaks words. A palm reader sees lines with a fortune to be told. Doesn’t mean it will be gold .
Wise words. It was tasteless and smeared with a sense of their own superiority.
I didn’t want to be that harsh, but maybe that’s true. As I say, I’ve been following the guy and been on friendly terms with him for months without reading too much into what he was doing. I find it hard to suddenly turn into his enemy and start spewing invectives.
It happens. I support people who later turn on me. Happened yesterday. Sigh.
Of course. I understand that.
There's a part of me that wishes I'd been on Notes to see all this unfold live. I've played Late To The Party with this one earlier this week. Anyway, completely agree with all the thoughts here.
desperate screams for money is the surest way to get me to mute you! (lol)
that which has value will be valued.
Very well said
What sweet irony that this returned to my attention through the fiction leaderboard. Well done.
Haha. Yes!
Thanks for sharing your thoughts! This post made me reconsider why I keep specific posts only for paid subscribers. I concluded that it's because I'm not ready for everyone and anyone to read such personal anecdotes. But maybe it's time to let go of that fear.
I’m glad to have helped you come to this realization, Raquel! Thanks for reading.
Sort of a corollary, if I may: Don’t ask *other writers* for money. But readers? Price your books competitively. (And FWIW, if a fan tells me they can’t afford $5.99 or whatever, I’ll happily gift them a copy.)
A good point. Definitely don’t sell yourself short. But don’t oversell yourself either.
I totally agree with you. I understand the desire to make money from writing and live the dream of making enough to support one's lifestyle. But asking or demanding to get paid for your work has terrible taste.
I can only advise such a person to publish his or her work on platforms like Medium. If the work is good enough, it will bring some income.
I think that’s sound advice. Thanks for weighing in! In any case, thankfully the debate has died down, and stuff like this doesn’t happen very often here. Not many writers “market” themselves aggressively here.
I've been even more asleep to the situation. I do understand asking gets you places, but like you said, be humble and decent about it. The writing needs to speak for itself too.
Always.